The City of Toys

Hans-Christian Täubrich in conversation with Jan Tomasz Gross and Zofia Waślicka

Nuremberg, Juli 10, 2011

JTG, ZW: You are the director of the Documentation Centre in Nuremberg. There is a whole complex of Nazi architecture designed by Albert Speer adjacent to your museum. Is it under your supervision and protection? The Zeppelin Tribune, Luitpoldhain, Grosse Strasse, Congress Hall, marching fields, and so on?

HCT: Yes, we care for this architecture, but paradoxically we are not able to do so. We can only try to deal with it ideologically or historically. Let’s try to imagine this huge complex—the Party rally grounds were seven times bigger than the Old Town in Nuremberg. There were several mass assembly sites: the Luitpoldarena, the Congress Hall, the Zeppelin Field and the Municipal Stadium. The planned German Stadium alone should have had the capacity to assemble 405,000 visitors. The March Field for show maneuvers of the Wehrmacht was a few times bigger than the Stadium. In fact the Nazis used for their plans a recreational area which had been in existence there for centuries. We know that the artificial lakes which are located there were built in the 14th century. This whole area was always in use by the citizens of Nuremberg. There was a zoo founded in 1912 in this very place. It seems like there was always a good atmosphere for mass events here. The Municipal Stadium, constructed already before the Nazi era, is used for sports competitions. For example, the last Football World Cup in part took place there. So it’s still a crowded area with recreational sites and fairgrounds. Maybe you’ve heard of the biggest toy fair in the world, which takes place every year in Nuremberg? On the very spot where Nazi rallies took place, kids’ business is conducted. Nuremberg is famous as the city of toys.

It sounds like a bizarre way to use Nazi party grounds—put toys in it.

Think of places in Berlin like the Olympic Stadium, the Ministry of Finance, or Tempelhof Airport. Each of these sites was or still is in continuous use, because its construction was finished and its function was defined—a function still necessary and useful after the war. Another such example would be the Haus der Kunst, the House of the Arts in Munich, which is still a public art gallery. But in the case of Nuremberg the situation is different. Nuremberg had a problem with this former Nazi rally ground, because it was only half-finished and served a purpose which was no longer necessary after the Second World War. So, the successor of the German Reich, the Federal Republic of Germany, simply handed it back to the City of Nuremberg, because it didn’t need it anymore. It became a real problem—for fifty years the City Council tried everything. The Municipal Stadium, finished in 1928, and used by the Nazis to celebrate the mass meetings of the Hitler Youth, has been refurbished several times. The last time was for the Football World Cup in 2006. For this occasion we installed twenty-three huge plaques with information in German and English about what happened here. The mayor’s idea is that every square meter can of course be used for a different purpose. But the people who use it have to know what it was used for seventy years ago. So we had more than 100,000 football fans hopefully educated by us about the history of the Stadium. The plaques didn’t disturb their enjoyment. This is how it should be, because life goes on. But life cannot go on without being conscious of the past.

There is one wooden tower inside the yard of the Congress Hall, which looks like a watchtower in a concentration camp. What is it?

Nuremberg had a problem with what to do with all these remains. So, the City Council simply thought to organize a fun fair, which takes place just besides the unfinished Congress Hall twice every year. Or when a big circus comes to town, it should be added. U.S. Army parades and annual mass assemblies of political parties took place on the Zeppelin Field a few times. Later, Bob Dylan and the Rolling Stones performed there. The City of Nuremberg tried to use the Congress Hall twice (1949 and 1950) as an exhibition space. They shamefully called it an “exhibition building,” because they wanted to eliminate those Nazi terms. There are huge galleries inside the Congress Hall, which was unfinished and later became a ruin. It has no roof, and the rain poured in during the winter. There is also the tower you mentioned, which was built and used only by emergency units for rescue-action training exercises. The condition of the Congress Hall is a remnant of several different ideas for how to use the building. And the building itself is half-abandoned, reconstructed in different parts by different users for different reasons. The hidden agenda was to minimize the importance of this area. Everyone, the mayor, the culture commissioner of the city, supported this idea. That was, let’s say, conscious passivity on their side. This was the reason why for a long time towed cars were parked in this huge yard. Portable toilets were stored there. In 2000, plans for the Documentation Centre in the Congress Hall were laid and construction began. An important part of the new museum was a panorama platform at the end of a long gangway running diagonally through the whole building. Many people visited the place at the time. Once an Israeli visitor asked, “Why do you invest 18 million marks (9,5 million Euro) only to create a view of towed cars and portable toilets?” Thus the huge yard of the Congress Hall became for us a kind of “Place for Thinking,” because we are always thinking about what to do with it. We can’t even use it for film screenings or other events, because of restrictive emergency-exit rules. One exit is not enough for German regulations.

But one thing I would like to push you on. The Zeppelin Field is the only structure that was really finished, as you say. And since you’ve been here and had custody of it, it’s been left in complete disrepair. Why? Is it deliberate? Have you given some thought to it? Or has it simply happened?

That is true. All these buildings are in dramatically bad condition, especially the Zeppelin-Tribune. This problem—how to preserve these buildings—will be a central issue of discussion in Autumn 2011. There was a row of columns on the top of the Zeppelin Tribune, which were blown up in 1968. The administration then said that they constituted a danger for visitors. Were these columns really so dangerous? It’s a fact that the whole building was constructed very hastily. Everything had to be built very quickly. Speer and Hitler wanted it finished. Its chalkstone surface was badly done, and water infiltrated the construction. Already under the Nazis, pieces of it began to crumble. Years ago, the back wall was used by tennis players for practice. Nowadays they can no longer use it, because pieces of masonry are falling off the facades. The remnants of the party rally grounds, the Zeppelin Field, the unfinished building of the Congress Hall, and so-called Great Road are listed buildings since 1973. The City of Nuremberg is obliged to pay all the costs to maintain it. 600,000 Euro go into this building here (i.e. the Congress Hall) simply to keep it as it is. The same amount goes into the Zeppelin Field because of its giant dimension. Through the ages and due to the damage, which was partly done by blowing up the columns, water went between the stairs and frosted. They have to repair it every year. But meanwhile they only repair the repairs from last year. So, at the moment Nuremberg has to decide to either let it crumble down once and forever and to put a big fence around the whole area because not only the grand stand is affected but also the thirty-four flag towers. Or according to a report it would cost 70 million Euro to fix it and to put it into a state where it would survive another fifty years.

What’s the position of the Centre in this? What do you want?

We want to maintain it. We will be discussing the need of preservation of this architectural and urban complex in autumn. We will have our 10th anniversary and we will use this chance to put public attention in the problem. The ordinary tax payer may think 70 million is too much money to preserve Nazi buildings and that it should be used for kindergartens, or roads.

Can you get it from the European Union? There is much funding for preservation.

They have to fund Greeks and Italians because of the crisis. We wrote letters to the Bavarian and German government, because this Documentation Centre was installed with the financial support of the Free State of Bavaria and the Federal Republic of Germany. Local government in Nuremberg thought that to keep representative buildings of the Third Reich in a good condition should be a national task. That’s why nothing really happened for a long time. Luckily just after the plans for this Documentation Centre were set up, there was an agreement between German State, the Free State of Bavaria, and the city of Nuremberg to share costs of preservation. Each partner should pay one third. In fact they all should decide if they want to keep it as a national monument, heritage of humanity. Now these are just listed buildings which could easily be removed from the list, for commercial reasons for example.

I should think that German historians would be absolutely outraged about the fact that it’s unclear whether this will survive or not.

On the contrary. There are some German historians who would not object to clear it, who don’t think that rubble is necessary. They think that we already have places everywhere where the consequences of Nazism are shown, Dachau, Neuengamme, Sachsenhausen, and many others.

But there has to be a place where the enthusiasm of the German people for Nazism is shown.

Exactly. This is our persuasion strategy. We feel obliged to give our opinion. At the moment the Documentation Centre is just a clue to the remnants of the party rally grounds. When we ask for 70 millions to save this place we will make sure that it will be possible for the visitors to also go inside the Zeppelin Grand Stand for example, the only interior room finished in this Nazi complex, the so called “Golden Hall” due to some mosaics on the ceiling.

And now nobody can go in there? What was its function?

It was a reception hall for Hitler. But this room was never used, never passed by Hitler and his entourage. He never entered the Grand Stand of Zeppelin Tribune from behind. He always came by car along the frontal facade.

It’s a big job for you to fight for its preservation. You really have to go through with it.

It is an enormous amount of money, which we need here. As a first step, we want to clear this place. There are protection fences in front of the Zeppelin Tribune for the car races. It looks so ridiculous. The Zeppelin Tribune is used as seats for spectators for the famous car race called “200 Miles of Nuremberg,” which takes place here annually in a 1.6 km circuit. During fairs huge lorries are parked here. So, the way this place is used is very brutal. There is also a row of small trees on. If we want to cut it, the Greens will come and protest. We asked for the keys and we will organize an information day in September, when the German citizens will have opportunity to join a guided tour inside the area surrounded currently by the fence put by organizers of the car races. People will be allowed to go into one of the towers and to see the whole area which is restricted now.

What is inside the towers?

Toilets. There is also a huge toilet inside the tribune. Once a very famous German documentary film director Michael Mrakitsch talking about the Zeppelin Field, mentioned it was a unique connection between the sacral and the anal or, the sacrament and excrement.

Actually, that makes sense. When you have a lot of people, 150,000 of them, they need toilets.

The mayor of the city of that time, Liebel, described this area as a “Temple City of the (National Socialist) Movement.” But each bigger building is just a toilet. It’s a huge complex of shithouses. Going back to the money—we want these 70 millions to save this whole area and its buildings. We want people to have an access to the so-called Golden Hall, to the staircases of the Zeppelin Tribune, and to one of the toilet-towers. We really want to make it accessible again. And we want to remove from this area remains of the sport competitions. There are for example barriers to separate viewers from the racing cars way. Nowadays with all this new multi-purpose use, viewers need a lot of fantasy to imagine people’s activity in this area during Nazi period of time. And the way the space was used for propaganda purpose. You should not only enter the tribune from its frontal facade, climb the stairs and watch all this area from Hitler’s balcony. It is the view from the other end of the Zeppelin Field, some hundred yards away, which will give you an impression what it meant to be part of a huge people’s assembly, totally focused on one person.

What do you show in the Documentation Centre? Documents?

We don’t have any original document here. We only have some objects from Nuremberg citizens. We are not a museum, as we don’t have a collection. On the other hand we are not just an exhibition. We welcome 140,000 pupils from different school classes, military units, police, per year. In German we use the term “Dokumentation” also for a film which deals with history. All these places which present perpetrators call themselves “Dokumentationzentrum.” There is one in Cologne, in a former headquarter of Gestapo. Another one is planned in Munich where the Nazi movement started its career. Our “Dokumentationzentrum” simply documents. We show the events stressing the area and the party rallies, which took place here around seventy years ago. It is embedded in very quick steps dealing with questions such as who were the Nazis, where did they come from and what was their message, how they became racists and what kind of law they created. All of it is done in few very concentrated and precise steps. We show a lot of pictures and not too much text, because we want people to go through this whole story and not to get bored after two rooms. Anyway, we are talking somehow about our own families—when they called off the party rally 1939—ironically named the “Party Rally of Peace” on August 26, my father camped already along the Polish border with the German Army, which invaded Poland on September 1. We are prepared to have visitors from all over the world and we have an audio guide in seven languages.

The Documentation Centre building is very attractive; people probably like it.

Yes. We had a small international competition, in which one Austrian and one Swiss architect took part. The Austrian architect Günter Domenig who is famous for a deconstructionist style was chosen. The main rules of Nazi architecture were symmetry, sheer dimension, rectangularity. So, by driving diagonally through the whole building, Domenig destroyed it forever. It was his intention by heart.

It’s similar to what Santiago Sierra made for the Boros collection, which is located in that huge bunker in Berlin. He designed a construction that destroys walls in the Nazi bunker. They had to make really big holes in the wall in order to present his artwork properly.

Domenig’s father was a 100 percent Nazi believer and was lynched by the citizens of his small town. So, there must have been deep emotions involved for Domenig in his architectural concept. He was very content to see this building done. Everything, much to the joy of the architect and the engineers, is spread out diagonally in radical contradiction to the original building shape. We have here two seminar rooms. We have lecture and cinema auditorium. We have also this 130 meters long spear—a gangway—driven through the whole building, which is a negation of the existing building plan. Sometimes we say, slightly ironic, “an Austrian finished what an Austrian began.” A bit different, of course. But we never get tired to explain how the building is shaped because together with the exhibition, many visitors are very attracted and impressed by the brutality of the spear. It’s based on contrasts—we have brick walls from the past here, solid concrete elements and the whole internal part of the modern spear, which is full of bright light. But as you can see in this part of the building we are just breaking the dark, which creates another strong contrast for the visitors’ eyes. The rest of the Congress Hall, out of our building is still just a huge ruin. One needs approximately one quarter of an hour to walk slowly from one end to the other.

It would be really scandalous not to preserve this place. It’s like a pyramid in Egypt. It has a meaning, it has a life, it exists. And people from all over the world see it and understand what it means. And this will be the same, because of Leni Riefenstahl. Just because of the film Triumph of the Will, which was shot in Nuremberg. This was the emotional heart of Nazism, not Wilhelmstrasse. It belongs to the history of mankind.

Concerning the memorial sites and concentration camps humankinds obliged to maintain them because there are just graveyards. But the camps were the final step, the consequences of the Nazi movement existence. Every deed is preceded by a thought, by an idea. Nuremberg was not the place where National Socialism was invented. But it was presented here at the party rallies to a very broad extent. And the infamous racial laws proclaimed in Nuremberg in 1935 marked the ‘legal’ beginning of a road which led directly to Auschwitz.

So the poor condition of this whole former Nazi complex is shocking. Especially when coming from Berlin, where it was decided to replace the East German Palace of the Republic with a reconstructed Prussian one. Which seems to be another crazy decision.

I think it’s a shame for all modern city planners that they have not had a proper idea about how to shape a modern city of Berlin. I do understand the people in Dresden who reconstructed the Frauenkirche. It was rebuilt due to the direct engagements of the Dresden citizens. But they are using it as a church. The Berlin Palace will not be used by an emperor.

Have you ever shown Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will on a big screen at the Zeppelin Field?

No. We have to be very careful when you consider what you can do there. Our institution has a very good reputation but we can lose it very quickly from one moment to the next doing the wrong thing.

A comment by Jan Tomasz Gross and Zofia Waślicka on the Documentation Centre Nazi Party Rally Grounds can be found HERE.